CITY OF SOUTH JORDAN
PLANNING COMISSION MEETING
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
November 10, 2009
Present: Chairman Linda Auger, Commissioner Kevin Tominey, Commissioner Paul Pugmire, Commissioner Beverly Evans, Commissioner David Wood, City Planner Greg Schindler, Planner Brad Sanderson, Assistant City Attorney Ryan Loose, Assistant City Engineer Shane Greenwood, Deputy City Recorder Cindy Valdez.
Others: Kevin Larson, Spencer Hyman, Kevin Larsen, Patrick Moffat, Trey Stokes, Aaron Griffith
6:30 P.M.
REGULAR MEETING
I. GENERAL BUSINESS
A. Welcome and Roll Call
Chairman Linda Auger welcomed everyone present at tonight’s Planning Commission Meeting.
B. Motion to Approve Agenda
Commissioner Wood motioned to approve the November 10, 2009 Planning Commission Agenda. Commissioner Tominey seconded the motion. Motion passed unanimously in favor.
C. Approval of the Minutes from the Meeting held on October 27, 2009
Commissioner Tominey motioned to approve the October 27, 2009 meeting minutes as printed. Commissioner Wood seconded the motion. Motion passed unanimously in favor.
II. INFORMATIONAL ITEMS AND OTHER BUSINESS
A. CALENDARING ITEMS
City Planner Greg Schindler said on Saturday November 14, 2009 there is a special meeting being held at Daybreak for the City Council. They will be doing a tour and an orientation on what is going on with the Daybreak project. The staff at Day break would like to set up a special meeting on a different day for the Planning Commissioners to have an orientation and take a tour. If you could give me a day of the week that works best for all the Commissioners, I will work with them on getting a date set up in the future, possibly after the first of the year. The Commissioner’s all agreed that Friday or Saturday would work best for them.
B. COMMENTS FROM PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBERS
Chairman Linda Auger said she would like to congratulate Mayor Money, Councilman Brain Butters and Councilman Larry Short for successfully working hard on their campaign’s last week. They all won their elections against some very strong challengers. We would like to say congratulations to those three men.
C. STAFF BUSINESS.
City Planner Greg Schindler said at the last Planning Commission meeting we talked about the Sesquicentennial Time Capsule and said a suggestion was made to place pictures of the City Council and the Planning Commission members in the time capsule. I would like to take the picture of the Commissioners tonight right after the meeting has ended.
D. NEW BUSINESS
None
III. CITIZEN COMMENT
None
IV. PUBLIC HEARINGS AND POTENTIAL *LEGISLATIVE ACTION ITEMS
*Legislative Action = More Discretion, Reasonably Debatable (Subjective Standard)
None
V. PUBLIC HEARINGS AND POTENTIAL **ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION ITEMS
**Administrative Action = Less Discretion, Substantial Evidence (Objective Standard)
A.1. File # SUB-2009.28, Preliminary Subdivision/Conditional Use Permit Application to subdivide a 18.86 acre parcel into thirty three individual residential lots and two additional remaining parcels “A & B” on property generally located at 11107 South River Heights Drive, zoned BH-MU, Patrick Moffat, (applicant).
Planner Brad Sanderson said I would like to state for the record, this meeting was not noticed as a Public Hearing because we held a Public Hearing at the Planning Commission meeting on October 13, 2009. I also took the liberty to notify the 5 or 6 people that spoke at the Pubic Hearing by email or by phone, letting them know about tonight’s meeting. There were some of the same concerns expressed to me that were expressed at the Public Hearing.
Planner Brad Sanderson reviewed all background information on this item.
Chairman Linda Auger asked Planner Sanderson if this item went back to the Architectural Review Committee.
Planner Brad Sanderson said no, this application did not go back to Architectural Review.
Commissioner David Wood asked if lots 101 to 108 are accessed by the driveways on River Heights Drive as shown on the diagram, or are they accessed by an alley way?
Planner Brad Sanderson said they are not accessed by River Heights Drive. They will have a driveway that comes up the side of the yard, because they are a side loaded product, each of the lot’s will have their own driveway.
Commissioner David Wood asked Planner Brad Sanderson, how will they get into the driveway?
Planner Brad Sanderson said they will enter the driveway off of Broadwick Road.
Commissioner David Wood said so these are really not alley accessed, is that correct?
Planner Brad Sanderson said the only lots that are alley accessed are 109 to 125.
Patrick Moffat, 90 S 400 W, Salt Lake City, Utah (Applicant) – said I would like to point out that Richmond American did express a concern over the 1,300 sq ft, but as the applicant, we are comfortable mandating the 2,000 sq ft minimum. As for the open space, we did get Community Development Director George Shaw’s re-design, and we are planning on incorporating a tot lot open space, into our second phase.
Commissioner Beverly Evans said she would like some clarification; there will be no open space in phase one, is that correct?
Mr. Moffat said there will be no open space in the first phase, it actually lays out better in the second phase, and is more centrally located.
Commissioner Beverly Evans asked Mr. Moffat, what is your time projection on starting phase two?
Mr. Moffat said our application is into the City, so once we get phase one wrapped up, we will start on phase two.
Chairman Linda Auger opened the Public Hearing for comments.
Kevin Larsen, 11306 S. Via Bonito Drive South Jordan, Utah – said I still have some pretty significant concerns. The area in question is still focused on a product that targets a demographic that is not likely to buy. There are far more superior options, with far more superior amenities, in other areas. This area provides no pool, green space, etc. There was a discussion regarding the possibility of a “small space” how small of a space, and what does that mean? There is no access for walk-able shopping, or services at the District. The likelihood of crossing 11400 S and Bangerter to access those areas is slim, unless there is some sort of bridge that everybody has in mind that I do not know about yet. How do they expect to compete with that particular demographic? They will have difficulty on price, because they do not have the space. Likely they will allow these products to become rentals for a transit population; that is what will happen to this area, it will become a rental area. Why not get out of this thinking, and look at an entirely new demographic. One option would be an older population of empty nesters that are looking for close proximity to a brand new LDS Temple in that area. That is something that you can have, a separate demographic, and drive interest for different reasons. I am surprised, and maybe a little concerned, that we are a community that has a tree as our logo, and we are allowing an area to develop with little thought to a highly popular green issue right now. The lack of a substantial park and jamming as many income properties as possible into this location, will certainly allow for Boyer to get out from under a very difficult situation, but it will do little for the long term population of this area, and the long term population of South Jordan. This area is competing with many other products exactly like it that are offering the same type of jammed development. This is old thinking, and many of these areas become a burden to the community as future RDA projects. Why not purpose a community that is built to last, that will save money now and later. As we heard from staff, some of the setbacks are still the same, this is still a giant concrete pad with mass housing double wides, very little has changed for the finalized look. We talked about a game ready decision, but only a few of the concerns that we provided have been taken seriously, other than garage size and the alley. South Jordan uses that logo that says “150 years proud of our heritage, embracing the future.” What is the future of this particular land going to look like? Last time we suggested getting this plan, game time ready, and we don’t even know what size the open space is going to be. These are clearly part of the concerns of the community, at least a proposal, or a thought of what size the open space in phase two is going to be, would help answer this panels questions of what the whole community is going to develop into. Instead, it feels like we are not being shown for a reason. It feels like we are being spoon fed information, for the purposes of Boyer to move the property, and for me that is difficult to accept.
Trey Stokes, 11297 Via Bonita Drive, South Jordan, Utah – said Kevin did a good job covering most of the concerns that our neighborhood has. I am still concerned about the open space, I think it is a start in the right direction, but it would be nice to have a better idea of what size they are planning to put in that area for open space. It was my understanding with the Bangerter Highway mixed use development and ordinance that it was going to allow for some master planning so developers could go in and really lay things out, and I am not seeing that, I think they are trying to piece mill this thing together. Garbette and a lot of the other developments have done some master planning, but this one has not done anything. I would like to know, if on the three development phases with the 80 to 100 homes, are they going to continue with the same five home plans, or are they going to look at additional home plans, or something that may ultimately improve this product. I am looking into the future on phase two, and wondering if they are they going to have the same lot sizes, with front or rear loaded garages, or have they given that much thought? I would also like to know if the landscaping is going to be done by this builder, or someone else. In the Lucas Dell area where I live, everybody was supposed to plant tree’s, it was required by the Planning Commission, but only about half the trees actually got planted.
Aaron Griffith, 10123 Mesa Vista Court, South Jordan, Utah- said I have a concern that I would like to voice. I really do hope that Boyer is successful in all of their endeavors, including this development. I am happy to see they are putting homes in this development, and not three story apartments, but I would like it to be on record, that I would like to see a little more green space. If we pack in that many households, and the lots are that small, it doesn’t seem likely they would play outside on their property; they are going to need somewhere to play that is off the street. It is my hope that there will be some open space created for the people in that community. When I spoke to Boyer on the phone, they stated this community will be like Daybreak, and I happen to be a big fan of Daybreak because I am a runner, and I love to run through daybreak, it is absolutely gorgeous. But I don’t know if that is a fair comparison, Daybreak has an enormous amount of open space that they have landscaped with trails, and a lake, it is really a gorgeous place to live. I would hope they would take the example from Daybreak, and put some open space, or something for humans to be outside, and not always on a concrete pad.
Chairman Linda Auger closed the Public Hearing.
Chairman Linda Auger said there seems to be a lot of concern regarding lots 119 to 124, and whether these units are going to be front loaded garages, or rear loaded garages with a driveway.
Mr. Moffat said these can be front or rear entry garages, depending on what the buyer would like. We are leaving the option open to give some flexibility to the buyer, but of those particular lots, there will only be six front loaded garages.
Chairman Linda Auger asked Planner Greg Schindler if the City has a percentage requirement for green space.
City Planner Greg Schindler said there is no percentage requirement’s for open or green space, within the BH-MU zone.
Commissioner Beverly Evans said she would like some clarification. If an emergency vehicle needed to get into the cul-de-sac, would they be able to get out.
City Planner Greg Schindler said they should not have a problem because the cul-de-sac is the standard size that is required by the City.
Commissioner Beverly Evans said if you are going to have several stages of a development, it would have been beneficial to have had a master plan, to insure what is going to be put in a certain place. That way we would know what it is going to be done, it would not be just a verbal agreement that you are going to put open space in the second phase of this development. A master plan is a guide, or an overview, of what is going to be put in all the phases of the development.
Mr. Moffat said we have submitted a master plan to the City on how the roads, lot lines, and utilities are going to be laid out, but as we go along we will need to tweak some things to improve on it.
Commissioner Beverly Evans asked if there is going to be an HOA in place to manage these homes.
Mr. Moffat said there will be an HOA. Largely because the alleys and open space will need to be maintained, as well as the landscaping maintenance that will need to be done on the frontage road on Summer Heights Drive, it will also take care of the landscaping that has already been installed.
Commissioner Kevin Tominey asked City Planner Greg Schindler if he knew where we are at on the 20% threshold for the BH-MU zone.
City Planner Greg Schindler said the original 20% threshold was calculated with this in mind two years ago, when it was previously approved as a subdivision. While working with Garbette and the San Tropez development, they were the ones in danger of going over the 20% threshold, because this development has already been approved for residential.
Commissioner Kevin Tominey said in section 17-7040 subsection C, (3 times masonry requirement). Why would we give them a pass on this, and let them do 2 times masonry and 1 times cement board?
Planner Brad Sanderson said there is a design book that needs to be approved by this body, so it will be up to your discretion whether this is acceptable or not. The applicant was originally proposing just to do fiber cement board on the front, with stucco on the sides and rear. They have come up a little bit, but if you want to hold them to the 3 times the perimeter, it is up to you to require that.
Commissioner Kevin Tominey said why is it up to us to require it when it says it so clearly in the code?
City Planner Greg Schindler said you can agree with staff on this recommendation, or you can say you do not agree, and you can recommend something else.
Commissioner David Wood asked Mr. Moffat what research has been done by Boyer or Richmond American to ascertain the demand for a product like this, in this particular area.
Mr. Moffat said in the last two years we have done a lot of research trying to figure what type of buyers would be best suited for this development, and what the market was like in this area.
Commissioner David Wood asked if the research was done by Boyer or Richmond; who actually conducted it?
Mr. Moffat said both Boyer and Richmond consulted with one another, and each conducted there own analysis.
Commissioner David Wood asked Mr. Moffat, is it safe to say that this particular layout and approach maximizes your profit on this land use.
Mr. Moffat said to be quite honest, there is no profit on this project, and that is nobody’s fault but our own.
Commissioner David Wood said it is my personal opinion that small lot, cottage type developments can be very charming and kind of nice. In my own personal opinion, I do not think this falls into that category. I feel like we should strictly enforce the 3ft fencing to try to enhance the curb appeal for this product. As I look at these mockups, I struggle with the curb appeal.
Mr. Moffat said I am fine with 3 times the perimeter, the reason being, we already have the 2 times plus the 1time hardy board, and the cost is very equivalent. If you want to make it easy and just say it is 3 times the perimeter of rock and brick, we are acceptable to that.
Commissioner David Wood said I think the pane windows and shutters are good, even street lamps and picket fences are very cosmetic, but it really helps a project to make it a little more palatable to the community. I also agree with the comment that was made, this is not a Daybreak comparable project.
Mr. Moffat said I think when I talked to Aaron, what I was trying to say is, the homes would be similar to the homes in Daybreak. But I would like to go on record and say, this is not a Daybreak Development.
Commissioner Paul Pugmire said I share all of the concerns that have been voiced here tonight. I think a verbal agreement is inadequate, and I do not want to vote on one. I think we are being piece milled a little bit on this project. I also think the open space is simply inadequate. The thing I will say in favor of this project is, in the briefing document we received, it says it provides a buffer between the R-1.8 on the east, and the town homes on the west and south, I do certainly agree with that. But there are just too many questions that come up with this project that just don’t fit with what we are trying to do in this area of the City, or in the City generally. I also think the Bangerter mixed use zone is not working. It is not producing a mixed use, it is concentrating on a commercial retail use on the south side of 11400, and it is concentrating on a residential use on the north side of 11400, and these things are not mixed 11400 is a natural barrier and is not even tied into I-15 yet. I don’t think that barrier is going to decrease when there is an I-15 interchange.
City Planner Greg Schindler said this is very true I think the only way to solve this issue, is at some point, working with the developer and the City. We will have to share the cost and look at possibly building a bridge, or something across 11400, because your are right, this is two separate developments.
Chairman Linda Auger said I have a concern as I am looking at this subject map. I am taking into consideration what Commissioner Pugmire is saying, however, if you look at the homes that are to the east of the subject property, they are pretty nice expensive homes, and I don’t think they are going to be happy if we put retail in this area. I don’t want to see this all filled in with quick put up residential apartments, that wasn’t even the reason for this zone. It just seems like we are getting a bunch of developers that want to put in small lots, with small homes.
City Planner Greg Schindler said this will be the last property that can be developed residentially, because it will max out the 20% threshold.
Commissioner Paul Pugmire said that is why this will have the effect of exacerbating the current trend of segregating commercial from residential, which I submit is not mixed use. If we take a big enough sweep, we can say South Jordan has mixed use. I am not suggesting that we take these properties adjacent to the R-1.8 on the east side, and make them into heavy traffic retail. As I noted earlier, I think the current proposal does provide as designated in the briefing document, a reasonable buffer between the R1.8 and the town homes on the South and West side. Ultimately what this comes down to is open space, set backs to the street, and we haven’t even discussed the set backs yet. If I am reading the setbacks correctly, and if there is a park strip and a sidewalk, these will be right up on the street. I also have a question regarding the open space. Do we have the ability to require open space even though it is not in the stated requirements for the Bangerter Highway mixed zone?
Assistant City Attorney Ryan Loose said if there is a detrimental effect of a conditional use, you can require open space. In looking at the zone, you cannot require something that is permitted, so if you have a permitted thing, you cannot call that a detrimental effect. As long as you are sticking with the residential type stuff, you can find your detrimental effect, make your findings, and show how it is mitigated by the open space.
Mr. Moffat said the open space we have planned is in phase 2, but it is also contiguous to phase 1. If you make a recommendation, and make it part of a condition that would require the open space be constructed with phase 1, it would require changing that plat as you see it now, but you would know it was going in upfront, and not in the future.
Commissioner Paul Pugmire said this project is just not working for me.
Commissioner David Wood asked City Planner Greg Schindler where the next City Park was located.
Planner Greg Schindler said it is in the Lucas Dell neighborhood, they have a 1.75 acre park.
Chairman Linda Auger said this item is an administrative action item, which means that we have requirements that we as a Planning Commission have to meet. If we are going to ask for more from the applicant, we are going to have to justify it. Commissioner Kevin Tominey has the code book in front of him and he has asked to read it to all of us to help us make a decision on this item.
Commissioner Kevin Tominey read the code on BH-MU zone to everyone present and discussion followed.
Chairman Linda Auger said I think hearing the code brought us back to focus on this administrative item and what we as a Commission have to adhere to.
Commissioner Kevin Tominey said I am not making an argument for this I am just saying, in all fairness, you know I am against the way we are doing this project; not just this one, but all of them. But we have codes and ordinances that we are required to follow.
Commissioner Paul Pugmire said I here what you are saying and you make a valid point. I do think this product as proposed, provides the buffer that we are trying to achieve, but I come back to the open space issue, and I do not know how we go about addressing it.
City Planner Greg Schindler said a condition needs to be made, and you need to make it clear, because there is a map that has the conceptual master plan. I don’t think you should be approving the conceptual master plan, because if you approve it, you are approving the layout, or concept that is stated here, and when they come back with future plats, you are going to have to go through the whole process again. You will want to be careful to make it clear, that you are not approving the conceptual master plan on what ever approvals you make tonight.
Assistant City Attorney Ryan Loose said if you approve the design book for A&B, that approves the conceptual thing, but conceptual or not, as site plan it is not what you are held to.
A.2. Potential Action Item – (See IV. A.1.)
Commissioner Paul Pugmire motioned to approve File No. SUB-2009.28 Preliminary Subdivision/Conditional Use Permit Application with the Conditions Established by Staff and the Following Three Conditions Are; # 9 be amended to say 3 x rather than 2 x pursuant to the code as it is established elsewhere, #11 This approval does not approve the conceptual master plan. #12 the open space requirement in this conditional use permit be established at 5% for the entire project of 18.86 acres. Commissioner Kevin Tominey seconded the motion. Roll Call Vote passed unanimously.
VI. OTHER BUSINESS
None
Commissioner Kevin Tominey motioned to adjourn. Commissioner David Wood seconded the motion. Motion was unanimous in favor.
AJOURNMENT
The November 10, 2009 Planning Commission Meeting adjourned at 8:15 p.m.
Meeting minutes were prepared by Deputy City Recorder, Cindy Valdez.
This is a true and correct copy of the November 10, 2009 Planning Commission meeting minutes, which were approved on November 24, 2009.
South Jordan City Recorder